In the autumn of 2011 Philosophy met Honey Thalijeh, then captain of the Palestine Women's Football team.

Honey told us the story of football in her country and we made a promise. That for Euro 2013, the Under 21s tournament hosted by Israel, we would visit Palestine to make a film and help tell the world what football means for ordinary Palestinians living on the other side of the wall Israel built to encircle and occupy their land.

The film was made on the eve of Israel hosting Euro 2013. It was premiered at the Palestine Olympic Association HQ in Ramallah. Please spread this film far and wide.

The Palestine Football Supporters Club T-shirt is available at
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Probably the only Westerner who understood the Middle East was Lawrence of Arabia. The fact that Israel is now adjudged part of Europe seems to show that the Jewish state is Western - not Middle-Eastern. This film, from AC's post:


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... SgqErDOAwI

is heartbreakingly sad & infuriating

dmk

Perhaps they build the wall around them themselves.
As far i know none of the flanking countries are too happy with them (Egypt blocks Gaza too, no?).
If the declared goal is to destroy Israel once and forever, what do they expect?
Isreal will stay, and there is no doubt about it, and the only option is to cooperate with them. Bombing buses is not cooperation. Sending rockets to Israel is not cooperation. Shooting at PLO people and not let them in the country anmyore is not that human. And in the given situation it ain't very smart neither (all in a very small place with the neighboor being fully armed, how high are the chances they would survive a reall attack longer than 2 weeks?).

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If i have to make a choice between a democratic and modern country and a fundamental religious organization which attacks civilians, then my choice is clear.

From arab spring we should have learned that the ones who are surpressed are not always lovers of democracy or freedom (but will happily surpress others as soon they are able to). .

nadir, the Palestinian people as a whole are oppressed by the apartheid state of Israel, which is a sham democracy as I'm sure you are aware. Still to this day, Palestinians and their offspring who were born in Palestine but got kicked out cannot return. This is a fact. Israel, via the colonialist settlers have been stealing more and more land and the blockade of Gaza still exists to this day.

I side with the oppressed whatever shitty political leaders they may choose to represent them (I guess you are referring to Hamas) to any oppressor however 'democratic' and 'Western' (whatever that means) they present themselves.

The state of Israel is not part of a solution, but is the problem.

Took me a while to find the opressed ones in full action:

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As far it's me that was and is the point of no return. I don't care for them.

What exactly do they want? Back to the stoneage? eye for an eye?

Israel will stay. There are two options: a) cooperate with them and get along or b) attack them and live with them giving you the business. Then complain how mean they are (because yes: one can expect of a country to stay silent and calm while it gets bombed on a daily basis. Any other country would do so).

Oh, and btw: I hereby want half of Poland, Königsberg and more to be added to Germany again. Or would it be reasonable to accept that the situation has changed - after moire than 50 years? Right wings still want it back. It's less uncommon than it sounds at first glance.

Fox news is hardly an independant news source. It is 100% pro-Israel.

And if the story is true ie the bodies were of collaborators, well unfortunately this sort of stuff happens, just read any history book.

The original post references to a Palestinian footballer who had been in an Israeli jail for 3 years. His crime? Being a Palestinian.

The country that is getting bombed on a daily basis is not the state of Israel, but Palestine, particularly in Gaza.
If you look at the casualty statistics of the 'daily' bombings from Hamas compared to the 'defensive' strikes of Israel, it is clear who is the aggressor. (operation cast iron led to over 1000 dead Palestinians, the vast majority civilians. The 1 year of Hamas rockets led to IIRC 4 dead)

So it is ok if they bomb Isreal for one year?
And they are supposed to not answer?
On a site note: The complete failure of bombing seems to proov that they are not the most smart ones (and only bring pain to themselves).
If you bomb, you will be bombed back. It is that easy. But at least don't complain afterwards (but be grateful they didn't bomb you for a whole year. Nothing would be left).

this sort or stuff happens

You got any source where Israelis dragged dead people through the streets, singing and shouting? Big round applaus by the masses? And you seriously ask me to support such people? Bare of the absolute minimum of moral, decency and respect towards anything? Sorry, but no.

Got to go, we'll continue this discussion later.



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nadir wrote:... the ones who are surpressed are not always lovers of democracy or freedom (but will happily surpress others as soon they are able to)

The Jewish people were greatly oppressed in Europe before and during World War Two. This is what directly led to the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians. Likewise the German people were oppressed at the end of World War One and this directly led to the atrocities of World War Two.

As far it's me that was and is the point of no return. don't care for them.

This is the root cause of it all. A wise Sicilian taught me the Rule of the Zero and the One. In every interaction we have a choice, we can either draw a line separating ourselves from others (like a 1) or we can draw a circle around us both joining ourselves with others (like a 0). YMMV, but for me, this is the most fundamental spiritual principle.

In order to oppress a people or wage war on them we first must dehumanize them. We have to draw that line that separates us from them and denies our common humanity. As you have wisely noted this almost always leads to endless repercussions of violence and oppression.

It's easy to find excuses to treat others inhumanely. The tricky thing, the good thing, the essential thing is to always act humanely even in the face of great provocation. As a US citizen, the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians is directly funded and militarized with my tax dollars. The US funded military might of Israel dwarfs the might of the Palestinians by many orders of magnitude. It is incumbent on me to speak out against this use of the fruit of my labors; to stand, at least metaphorically, with Rachel Corrie.

When there is absolutely nothing left to lose, people do fight back. Marek Edelman and other members of the Jewish Combat Organization fought against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto. If YouTube were around back then, I'm sure you could cherry pick atrocities done by the Poles against the Germans and use those as an excuse to draw a line between yourself and the Poles and as an excuse for all the German atrocities against the Jews.

Let's stop. Let's stop this insanity. Let's stop dividing people into us and them.

Me. I am against all religious zealots/nuts. From the Russian Orthodox Church locking up Pussy Riot, Muslim radicals cutting off heads and shooting womens heads, Right Wing capitalistic rich religious Baptists doing the white is right boogie. Jews doing the goy hat dance.

I equate religion with buying insurance. Paying for something you think you might need (with vague promises). When you need it. They figure a loop hole to back out of honoring their commitment."Mysterious is the ways of the Lord"

History gave Palestine away because of persecution of religion and race. The crime continues. It will always continue as long as folks and religion walk hand in hand. Power corrupts. Religious power corrupts even more. No matter what the faith or organization. I don't exclude buddhists either.

Swap everything around. The Arabs would be just as bad as the Jews. If I ever learned a thing in life, it is this.

If you ever find yourself in a fair fight. Your tactics suck.

Edit: Bitjam ninja'd me. __{{emoticon}}__

Yes, i draw a line between me and them.
I don't murder innocent people (well: i don't murder any at all).
I don't drop a bomb in a bus.
I don't kill people and drag them through the streets.
I don't start a fight i can not win, if it will only bring pain to me and the others.

I wouldn't call murdering 6 million people, most of them children < 14"to oppress them". The purpose was to eliminate Jews once and forever (The same purpose can be seen in many statements of Hamas). That was not tried against Germany after World War 2. That is not getting done against Palestinians.

As far i know Israel is not a religious state. Gaza is based on the one and only religion (or wants to be).

I don't want to say that Israel is perfect. But it might be an idea to look at both sides of the coin.
And, like already said, have a very close look what ideas one is supporting (sure not democracy, freedom, free-speech, free choice of religion or any similar value).

The existence of Israel, the right to exist and if necessary the will to protect it is one of my main political ideas
(Germans and states of the region always had a good relation. Guess what their common goal has been?).
I got nothing against Palestinians, but i will not support any group willing to eliminate another group (willing means: it pretty much seems like their only - or at least main- purpose. And if you vote for them then you say: Yes, that is what i want).

the essential thing is to always act humanely even in the face of great provocation

That's what i tried to say, but it's valid for both sides.

These attacks by both Hamas and Fatah constitute brutal assaults on the most fundamental humanitarian principles. The murder of civilians not engaged in hostilities and the willful killing of captives are war crimes, pure and simple.

Humans Right Watch, here:
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On August 2, 2008, approximately 180 Palestinian Fatah activists who remained in Gaza crossed into Israeli territory, some of them injured. For humanitarian reasons, the IDF allowed Palestinians who disarmed to enter the country. Those injured were given medical treatment inside Israel.

here:
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(If i am not wrong some time ago there has been a short note at bottom of that quote, saying"official quote needed". But it also contained a note that all who wanted to cross the border back would be shot. By Hamas).

I know the video about people (soldiers, but i didn't remember it) hitting others with stones. I even wrote a poem about it:

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(Second one, third paragraph of it:"Ein Mann hat die Beine angezogen ...").
I didn't know about who was it or why they did it. I don't know what happened to those soldiers. In a good (with a minimum of morality) state they should be put in jail. It's a shame.
As boys we had a very simply rule: You don't give the business to anyone obviously more weak (else we gave us the business quite a lot, probably for the lulz). I think it's a good rule.

Israel is a religious state. It was set up that way. It was also set up on Palestinian land and led to the wholescale expulsion of Palestinians. Surely you have heard of the Irgun?

Without US financial and miltary aid, Israel would collapse. The democracy that exists in Israel is a sham.
Just like it was in apartheid South Africa. In fact, South African anti-apartheid activist Desmond Tutu (not a radical by any means) siad Israel was worse than South Africa.

For me the solution is a secular Palestine where Jew and Gentile can live side by side as they had done so for centuries before the state of israel was established.

Some posts to read on Palestine.

Disappearing Palestine:

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Nakba Day:

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Israel stealing water from the Palestinians:

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Apartheid road system:

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