"ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex: it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations"

I wouldn't call that a religious state.
I'd say to exclude such:

"7A. A candidates list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset, if the goals or actions of the list, expressly or by implication, include one of the following:

(1) negation of the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state;

(2) incitement to racism;

(3) support for armed struggle by a hostile state or a terrorist organization against the State of Israel."[2]
—Basic Law: The Knesset (1985)[2]

is quite common (no state on earth allows groups which try to destroy it).
Same here:

"1. The purpose of this Basic Law is to protect human dignity and liberty, in order to establish in a Basic Law the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state."[3]
—Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty[3]

"2. The purpose of this Basic Law if to protect freedom of occupation, in order to establish in a Basic Law the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state."[4]
—Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1994)[4]

(i don't understand what is meant with occupation. I assume it means job).


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If one argues that reality differs: That is in any state. But as soon you got such laws or such a constitution you can go to curt and ask for it to be respected. If you ain't got such a constitution you can do nothing
(quite some states use a law based on religion and traditions).
I prefer a good idea which fails (but finally might make a step forward) over a bad idea.

I can't figure out how many non-Jews live in Israel. The sources don't make clear if they include West-bank and Gaza or not. From what i hear in Israel quite a lot non-Jews are living (but i can't find a good quote which makes it clear).

For me the solution is a secular Palestine where Jew and Gentile can live side by side

That sounds good. Does Hamas ask for it too?

"That sounds good. Does Hamas ask for it too?"

I'm 100% certain that Israel doesn't.

Well: Yes, and i am 100 that Hamas doesn't do it.

Hamas has significant differences with the PLO. The ideology of Hamas is a synthesis of pan-Arab Islamic religious ideals and Palestinian nationalism. Hamas states its intent to establish an Islamic state in Palestine and its covenant draws heavily upon Islamic ideology and Quranic verses. The PLO charter, on the other hand, is a secular document with a call to Palestinian nationalism. Senior PLO officials have said that they will install a western style democratic form of government in an independent Palestine. 10

Both charters say that Israel must be forced from all of what was known as `Palestine' prior to 1947 (the 1922 League of Nations mandate included what is now Israel, Jordan, and the occupied territories; the British later changed this to exclude the Kingdom of Jordan east of the Jordan River), and that armed force is the only way to bring that about--Hamas uses the term `jihad' or religious war. 11 However, in late 1989, the PLO changed its position in regard to a Palestinian state and expressed willingness to accept a state comprising the West Bank and Gaza in confederation with Jordan and the continued existence of Israel. It has since been negotiating indirectly with Israel on the basis of land for peace and UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. Willingness to negotiate with Israel over territory is probably the most significant difference between the PLO and Hamas. It is possible, though no by no means clear, that differences over the form of government could be negotiated.

Hamas relies heavily upon its use of violence. This is clear from the content of pamphlets regularly distributed throughout the occupied territories since the first month of Hamas existence. The pamphlets include statements such as: `increase attacks with knives, grenades, and guns against the cowardly Jews in their houses and turn the day into darkness and the nights into intolerable hell * * * view every Jewish settler as a target to be killed, whose blood and money are for the taking.' 12

Palestinians in the West Bank apparently favor the PLO over Hamas, but Hamas' popularity among Gaza's 750,00 Palestinians has grown over the past five years to a point where Hamas has seriously challenged the PLO for popular support. On several occasions armed clashes have broken out between followers of the two factions in that area. Most observers believe that should Hamas supplant the PLO as spokesman for the Palestinians in the territories, it would mean the end of the peace talks with Israel and open warfare between Hamas and Fatah. 13

Give me a similar official statement by Israel.


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How many Jews live in Gaza?
Yes, right. That is exactly what is called apartheid.

We will have to agree that we disagree.

The reason why Hamas became more popular in Gaza has nothing to do with its Islamism, but everything to do with its uncompromising stand on the state of Israel, or at least that is how many Palestinians see it. The PLO 'sold out' over the Oslo agreement. The PLO (or better the Palestinian Authority) were the ones that stated the civil war in Gaza against the democratically elected Hamas government. They did so with 100% Israeli spport.

The result was a mass campaigh demonising Gaza that the Palestinian Aurthority shamefully participated in. When demonstrations broke i\out in the West Bank in solidarity with Gaza during the Operation Cast Lead bombings, the Palestinian Authority sent the police out to smash up the demonstrators (and there were cases of people being murdered). Who gained from all this? The Israeli oppressors.

When Palestinians talk about destroying the state of Israel, the overwhelmin majority (including Hamas supporters I have met) do not mean killing all the jews. They mean the setting up of a secular Palestine where there is no offical state religion. Israel is a Jewish state, It is in the constitution. This is the problem.

Israel is armed to the teeth. It has the political, military and economic support of the most powerful states in the world (USA and Europe). The Palestinians have, however, right and justice on their side.

"How many Jews live in Gaza?
Yes, right. That is exactly what is called apartheid."

Well there are probably a lot more than you think. There are Jews who consider themselves Palestinians and they do live in Gaza and the West Bank. They cannot live outside because they have defined themselves as Palestinian jews, who accoeding to the state of Israel doesn't exist.


"We will have to agree that we disagree."

Yes we will.

A lot more.

How many? In numbers. In Gaza.

. Most of Gaza's inhabitants are Muslim, although there is a Christian minority.

But all those info of wikipedia are probably part of the one big scheme. Give me a break. Palestinian Authorities sold out Gaza, Israel gains from it? The culprit is Israel, yes? Or both: Palestinian Authorities and Isreal? They say something but mean something different? (Cause they are not able to speak? Or why? If i say"i want an apple" but i mean"i want a beer" then that is really my problem) They attack someone"armed to the teeth" and then wonder why they don't get anywhere? They refuse to get Israel citizenship, hoping for, wait, what? They vote Islamic fundamentalista and do it ... why? hoping to get what? peace? It sounds a lot as if they were simply stupid (they can't say what they want and what they do can only fail, mainly give more pain to themselves.)"They build the wall around themselves." That's how i started.

As BitJam pointed out in his post, the resistence in the Warsaw Ghetto (among many others) fought with very little against the whole might of the Nazi machine (and lost), but they were right to do so.

The resistence to Nazi barbarity inside Germany was doomed to fail, but people did fight with whatever they had, and they were right to do so.

The Native Americans in the whole of the Americas were right to fight against European colonialism even though they were ultimately defeated/slaughtered.

The peoples of Africa and Asia fought the might of the colonial powers of Britain and France (amongst others) and won, despite millions of deaths.

The Vietnamese suffered over 1 million deaths in the wars against the French, US. Were they wrong to fight?

Nadir, can the policies you support lead to anything other than:

• a) the extermination of all Palestinians and their supporters, or
  b) endless war?

You say you separate yourself from the Palestinians due to the horrendous acts of a few and it sounds like you support collective punishment of all Palestinians in retaliation for those acts. This is a war crime. You deny the common humanity of yourself and the Palestinians. Are they different from you due to genetics or due to their upbringing? Why is this any different from the Nazis denying the humanity of the Jewish people? As long as humans in power are willing to deny the humanity of humans out of power, the cycle of violence will never end.

On the one hand, you feel strongly that Palestinians must refrain from striking back at their oppressors no matter how much is taken away from them: their land, their livelihoods, their lives. On the other hand, you feel the state of Israel is justified in striking back at the Palestinians collectively at (comparatively) the slightest provocation.

There can be no question that the state of Israel holds almost all the power in this situation and it is adamantly opposed to democracy (the single state solution) because their current citizens are greatly outnumbered by the Palestinians (or soon will be). The only thing that would happen if the Palestinians stopped fighting back is their terrible plight would be even further underreported. Think for a moment about how much would have to be taken away from you before you started to fight back.

I think we all agree that the Germans and the Japanese committed many atrocities during World War Two (I think almost every side in almost every war commits atrocities). If the victors followed the policies you are advocating in Palestine, then Germans and Japanese would have been deprived of their liberty, their political clout, their lands, and their livelihoods to this day and we would still be further encroaching on their basic rights. Instead, we implemented the UN, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and eventually the Marshall Plan. Do you disagree with the Marshall Plan and other policies that made Germany and Japan our allies instead of our sworn enemies?

If we can forgive the German people for harboring the horrors of Nazism then why can't the Palestinian people be forgiven for having their lands and livelihoods stolen from them? Instead of spending many billions of dollars a year to keep Israel armed to the teeth, wouldn't it be better to spend many fewer billions a year to implement a Marshall Plan in Palestine?

The only rational objection I see is Israel's adamant opposition to democracy. If the Palestinians were treated as fellow humans then they would eventually be given a vote and Israel will never allow this. Instead, Israel follows a policy of endless war and the slow but steady extermination of all Palestinians. If you oppress any people long enough and hard enough, they will eventually strike back. When they do, you can use that as an excuse for the atrocities that started it all in the first place.

The thing is: I don't support Israel politics.
And i don't support Palestinian politics or tactics neither.

Who said i have forgiven the Germans for destroying the bigger part of German culture until now, murdering close to all European Jews, destryoing Europe for years and what not?
There has been a flourishing and vital jewish culture in Europe. It doesn't exist anymore (which, back the start of this sentences, is"the bigger part of German culture" too. Or has been It's gone. ).
Germany was the culprit of World War 1. It was the culprit of World War 2 (with 60 million dead people). I don't think the Marshall plan was a god idea, and once it is re-united again it is giving very hard times to the rest of Europe (and probably the world too). Too big for Europe, too small for the world. The old story.
Not everything which sounds good at first glance is a good idea in the long run. Germany means war, is a common proverb among German left-wings.

And you forgot re-education (as far i know mainly offered by the USA).
In enabled complete nutmen to hide their insanity and behave like civil people.
At least for my generation and the generations before me one of the main goals of school education was to learn about the Holcaust. That ended after the breakdown of eastern Europe and the re-union of (parts of) Germany:
"Die Forderung an jede Erziehung ist eine einzige: Auschwitz darf sich nicht wiederholen. Alles andere ist null und nichtig diesem einen gegenüber: Auschwitz darf sich nicht wiederholen"
Adorno, Erziehung zur Mündigkeit.
Oh, and before anyone tries to use Adorno for his very own goals:"Auschwitz ist einzigartig und unvergleichbar"

None of that makes Isreals official politics any better. And it doesn't make the politics of Palestinians any better neither.
But it makes me hesitate to assume that each and every protest has in mind the things i have in mind too.
And as soon the official goal is to terminate/eliminate each and every Jew i sure am out.This is 2013, not 1596

But my main point was: If i don't support Isreals politics it doesn't mean that i support Palestinina politics, and for sure not any muslim brotherhood.