SamK wrote:Background Image
I'm making a working assumption that the choice of background image is at a preliminary stage and still open for discussion. From a cursory look at this theme site it appears others have gone down this route previously:

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Sam, the console background is generally independent of programs that run in the console but I think it makes sense to let the users have a choice so I made an fb-theme-select program that lets the user select the background image. I've got about 100 themes installed but some of them have a limited range of resolutions. Only themes that work at the current resolution get displayed. I've attached a couple of screenshots of the program. It's actually pretty cool IMO. I could easily add this functionality to the console-dm but the tricky part would be to actually change the default background image/theme (not just the current background/theme) which I believe would be distro dependent. Still, the fb-theme-select program makes it very easy to sample the different themes.

WM Descriptions
If a user has only a small number of WMs installed then I could incorporate the descriptions you suggest. The tricky part is to create a database of short yet meaningful descriptions for a variety of WMs. ISTM the more general solution is to move the description off of the front page. We certainly would need that anyway for the case where the user has many WMs installed.

Another possibility for people with a small number of WMs is to incorporate the Space- and Rox - prefixes. The benefit is that people can instantly see which WMs are Rox- and Space- enabled and which are not. One alternative would be to append a asterisk to WMs that are Rox- and Space- enabled. Another would be to somehow blank out the Icon-manager selection when a WM that does not support the current Icon Manager is selected.

We've already been around the block on this a few times but I don't think it would hurt to go around again and drag a few more people along. I've noticed that the one thing novice users see that distinguishes one desktop from another is whether it has desktop icons or not. The next thing they notice is the background image. Everything else is a blur to them. So for novices, it makes sense that"Rox-IceWM" is a different WM from plain"IceWM". Maybe we will have to experiment to see which ways work best.

I'm not adverse to adding short description of the WMs as long as it does not entail lots of extra complication. We have maintained a flat file database of WMs in the past. We moved away from that and now just use the files in /usr/share/xsessions. These do contain short descriptions but the ones I've looked at are worthless e.g."This session logs you into Fluxbox". ISTM the most difficult thing will be coming up short meaningful descriptions.

At some point, it might just be easier to make it very easy for users to switch from one WM to another. One of the features of console-dm will be to enable switching the WM from within the desktop menu. For example When the user makes their selection, they get logged out of the current WM and logged back into the new WM without having to even see the console-DM. ISTM this is a much better interface than having to log out, choose a WM, and then log back in again, even if the log-in is password-less. We might even think of these desktop menu selections as the primary interface to console-dm.

I've used this same idea for bookmarks. I have a small program that creates a set of desktop menus that match all of my Firefox bookmarks. That way if I want to launch a bookmark in a new Firefox window I just make a selection from the bookmark section of my desktop menus. I find this to be extremely convenient. I also have menu items to switch to the different virtual consoles but the ones I use most often do a search based on whatever the currently selected text is. My searches include: Google, Wikipedia, a dictionary/thesaurus, the Internet Movie database, and Amazon. I also have buttons on my desktop to perform these searches. I highlight text, and hit a button then a browser window pops up with my search results. I can't imagine being without these conveniences.

Sorry for the digressions but maybe they add some context for my vision of the WM section of the desktop menus.

PS: I've also added a toggle to switch between centered labels and left aligned labels. This will make it easier for us to evaluate the alignments. I agree with you Sam. I tend to prefer having things line up left aligned and that was my first choice but there's something I like about the centered labels that is hard to see in the static screen shots because the hightlighted selector stays the same size. It can certainly be a config option. I can also try making the hightlighted bar the same size for the left aligned labels.

PPS: I tried using a constant width highlighted selector on the left aligned labels and it really doesn't look good.

Here are the screenshots of the theme selector:

I have a long held view that antiX is a good replacement for Windows running on old kit. Until recently it has only been a gut-feeling that it is attractive to this group. The following posts seem to indicate that a large proportion of interest does indeed originate from Windows users.
how-do-people-discover-antix-t4544.html
post30708.html#p30708
My ideas are aimed at making antiX more appealing to them in order to increase the take-up rate.


Background

BitJam wrote: ...the console background is generally independent of programs that run in the console but I think it makes sense to let the users have a choice so I made an fb-theme-select program that lets the user select the background image.

Might we be discussing this aspect at crossed purposes? Perhaps the following may clarify my ideas.

I am not in any way averse to user choice, however I see that as an entirely separate matter. Exploring a range of console backgrounds is unlikely to be a high priority during an initial assessment of antiX. Researching them will probably be done after the decision has been taken to adopt antiX.

My ideas about the background relate only to the as shipped defaults of antiX.

Currently, antiX-13-Full uses thematically related backgrounds for both the GRUB and SLiM screens. It is worth retaining this in future releases of antiX. It promotes the impression of antiX being coherent and joined-up. This helps to increase the initial appeal to potential new users from Windows. They are accustomed to a similar consistency of presentation from (say) XP and gain reassurance from it.

The following apply only to the screens presented by the antiX boot manager and login manager.
The proposal for the shipped defaults is

1. The GRUB2 screen and SLiM replacement screen are themed
2. The SLiM replacement login screen and all related options screens are themed
3. The standard console background is black (not themed)

At this stage of the design discussion, it might be less complicated to consider console background switching via fb-theme-select separately. Might it be a candidate for packaging as a downloadable .deb? From this distance it does not appear essential to include it within the already limited space of the ISO.



WM Description
Excluding a dedicated testing environment, there are only two scenarios I can forsee in which any given machine is likely to have many WMs/DEs.

1. The user has adopted antiX and has manually installed lots of them. This might be a search to find the one they prefer. My observations lead me to conclude that once this is decided the user tends to stick with it. Progressively installating further WMs/DEs in addition to the preferred one does not appear to happen.
2. antiX is either going to greatly increase the number that it ships within the ISO, or change its installation method.

In both scenarios, antiX will provide a known range of WMs as standard elements of the release. Accommodating the WMName - Description format will be reasonably straightforward for these standard parts. Where a user manually installs their own choice of additional WM/DE it is probable they have some idea of the expected outcome. In such a case the description is not needed and antiX therefore does not need to supply it, only supplying the name which is simpler to do.

In neither scenario the benefit of accommodating very large numbers of WMs/DEs is not obvious. The majority of users will stick with the standard WMs. Some, of course, will also install an additional one or two of their choosing. It seems that attempting to accommodate a very large number of WMs/DEs is over-engineering the solution.

BitJam wrote: One alternative would be to append a asterisk...

The use of asterisks to indicate important information is not appealing. One of the goals is to make the mechanism obvious and immediately understadable to potential new users. The ideas offered previously to indicate the release defaults seem better suited to achieving this. I suppose this is basically moving away from the extreme brevity that is commonplace in Linux.

BitJam wrote: ...the one thing novice users see that distinguishes one desktop from another is whether it has desktop icons or not. The next thing they notice is the background image. Everything else is a blur to them.

There is another item I would add to this list.

In a case where a potential new user is considering antiX to replace (say) Windows XP it might well be on older, less powerful kit. In such a case the choice of WM+FM+Desktop has a noticeable effect. Where a user wants a desktop with shortcut links, the current antiX-Full default of IceWM+ROX is be more responsive (faster) on older hardware than SpaceFM. The difference is not as apparent on newer more powerful hardware.

BitJam wrote: One of the features of console-dm will be to enable switching the WM from within the desktop menu.

This does seem attractive, even though it is presently a potential goal. To aid clarity, might it be worth pinning down the current discussion points before exploring this idea further?


Off Topic

BitJam wrote: I've used this same idea for bookmarks.
[...]
I also have menu items to switch...

This sounds similar to something I have set up on various platforms and distros over the last approx 10-12 years. I refer to it as a Task Menu. It is quite opportune that it has arisen now as I am just at the final stages of doing it in antiX. It works fine in the WMs used here (IceWM & JWM). I intend to post about it soon. I am currently heavily committed in other areas so it will take a short while.
Edit: Task Menu posted a-task-centric-menu-for-antix-t4561.html